What if all of a sudden people started joining the industry with more intention than ever before?
Would that change finally push the industry past the tipping point of being a fallback career people didn't know they wanted?
It's certainly an exciting possibility to contemplate as new risk management programs start the introduction process much sooner.
Megan Miller, executive director at the Spencer Educational Foundation, talks about all the ways those possibilities are becoming a reality and how you can get involved.
Joey Giangola: Megan Miller, how are you doing today?
Megan Miller: I'm doing well. How are you, Joey?
Joey Giangola: Megan, I'm doing great. I kind of want to know this before we really get into anything too serious. And the first question I have is, do you have any sort of just a silly, mindless physical challenge that you tend to do in life, just that makes no sense and it's just something when the opportunity presents itself, like I'm going to see if I can do this?
Megan Miller: The first thing that's coming to mind, I'm a bit embarrassed to admit, is I like to play Candy Crush on my phone. It's completely mindless. I don't know if you've ever played, but you're just sitting there trying to match up candies and watching them puff into nothingness. And it's just a nice way to kind of relax and take my mind off whatever it might be on.
Joey Giangola: All right. Well, that's definitely, you've got to keep the brain stimulated, right? You've got to keep it moving. I think that helps. I go for something, I don't have the opportunity enough, but I like to race people in airports that take the moving sidewalk. I like to see if I can beat them just not walking on the sidewalk. It's my own little game I play just to get from point A to point B. I don't know why.
Megan Miller: That's a good one.
Joey Giangola: But it's just one of those things. Well, so the thing I find interesting is because sort of where you're located in the world of insurance, it feels like you probably hear a lot about, at least I know I've heard a lot about recruiting and perpetuation and all of those things. And yet, I don't know if the level of enthusiasm matches the problem. It feels like we're sort of challenging ourselves maybe unnecessarily in terms of the effort we put into with risk management programs and things that are now becoming available or maybe more widespread. How do you see that in terms of the response and that give and take between the industry and their ability to see these new programs and help get them going across the country?
Megan Miller: Yeah. I think it's still a challenge. You hear these numbers that so many people in the industry are going to retire in the coming years, and we're going to have a talent crisis and this war for talent. People like to talk about it. I think recruiters are very passionate about it. I don't know that that translates all the way up to the top. Most people have identified the fact that insurance isn't kind of this sexy place where all these young people are clamoring to work. And so education is really key, like letting students know, even if it's not an RMI program, like a robust degree program, just somehow letting students know about insurance, what's out there, and really the dynamic careers you can have.
Everyone seems to know that that's an imperative, and there's mixed results on who's doing it and how they're doing it. So it would be great at some point to see a concerted effort come together. But it's just, it's a lot of moving parts, right? So it's not something anyone can tackle on their own. For our part, we do specific things to sponsor that education and just to get the word out. I like to call it spreading the good news about risk management and insurance. I think that's the biggest thing, is just really reaching those students at the exact right time when they're making those decisions, so that they're even thinking about this as a career option.
Joey Giangola: In your experience, what have you seen when they do get hit with that message at the right time? What's the general result or the outcome of at least being right place, right time?
Megan Miller: I mean, I think then you get students who are more intentionally going into these programs. Like right now, we have a lot of what I like to call legacy students. So my aunt works insurance. I actually got my niece into the industry, for example. She never otherwise would have. So there's the legacy students. Then there's people like most of us my age and up, I'm not going to say what that is, but around mid-career, who will tell you, I just fell into insurance by accident.
So I think just exposing the students to very real world experiences, not just sitting in a classroom and hearing like, this is what I do for work, but getting them to a conference or getting them into an office to meet actual people. Then you get a lot of interest. Then you get people who are actually like, "I'm going to sign up for an elective risk management class. It's nothing I ever thought of, but I'm going to sign up for this." And then it's really up to the professors to bring it to life in the classroom and make it super exciting and interesting. But we do now see, I think we see a lot more students that are intentionally going into it that, you know, through certain efforts wouldn't have otherwise heard about what a great career opportunity it is.
Joey Giangola: You mentioned a lack of a concerted effort across the board. Is there one line that you could draw, like from end to end, that might help organize things and pull it together a little bit tighter?
Megan Miller: Well, I think there's a lot of disparate organizations trying to do similar things, and a lot of it is nonprofit based. And I work at a nonprofit now, but I'm not a career nonprofit person. I worked in the industry for about 16 years. You get people, small groups that are passionate about a cause, but there's no way to integrate those efforts. Like Spencer Educational Foundation, where I work, for example, isn't going to go and acquire other organizations that are doing similar things. So what we try to do is just partner where we can.
So there's this great program called Invest, where they're actually bringing curriculum to high schools. And that's a really great place, before students are even making that selection of where they're going to college. And it's supported by a lot of the same companies that are supporting us, and we're very supportive of it. And we don't have the boots on the ground at Spencer to do what they're doing, but it's kind of what we all want to do. Again, like spreading that good news.
So I think just because of the way the nonprofit space works, it's hard to aggregate those efforts. And then on the corporate side, everyone's doing their own recruiting and they don't necessarily want to partner with other companies because, again, this war for talent, they want to be the employer of choice. So you're not going to necessarily see people in a full partnership to spread the word. Everybody kind of has to recruit for their own company, which makes sense.
Joey Giangola: Yeah. And I've actually never heard of anybody getting at the high school level. I mean, what does that look like? What does even that conversation, is it an actual class, offering basic accounting, insurance type knowledge?
Megan Miller: Yeah. So I don't know the curriculum firsthand, but I believe there are different options. So it can be like something where a volunteer teacher goes into a high school classroom, maybe like three times over a semester, something as simple as that, versus it's an actual full on class where they're spending time there once a week with the students.
And the content, it's talking not so much the technical aspects, but again, what are the career opportunities? Why is it important? Kind of insurance on the broad level that we in the industry all know, like insurance makes the world go round. And just bringing that idea to students, that it touches everything, from insurance for your cell phone to who steps in when a hurricane happens, just bringing in those real world events and making it real for the students about how insurance is touching every aspect.
Joey Giangola: This might be an impossible question, but I'm going to give it a shot. So if you're an agency owner, you're somebody that's running a business, again, they're in that war for talent, what's the biggest thing that maybe they're disconnected from that you see from the people that you're helping get these educations introduced into these career paths? Is there one thing that you think they might be overlooking or just maybe not paying enough attention to, to where it might not be as appealing or there's a communication gap?
Megan Miller: I don't know if my answer is going to really fully answer exactly what you're asking, but I think the problem more with the smaller agencies is they don't have, one, enough of that entry level work to really bring in a small force, you know, like a small new hire group. And then the second part is they don't have the resources to really mentor and train those people either.
That takes a lot of work. You're bringing in someone who almost knows nothing other than maybe what they learned in school, and you really need to invest in that talent. And if you're a very huge company, you probably have a lot of infrastructure there, you have a lot of that lower level work that needs to be done. But for agencies, I would think that the issue is just not having the resources to bring those people in and really train them so that they're having a good experience and that they want to stay.
Joey Giangola: So you said a couple times the mission is to spread the good news of insurance. Is there something that you have found that might help, again, these agency owners, in terms of going out there and maybe taking a little more, I don't want to say agnostic approach, but just, again, not necessarily being concerned with them working at their company, but how do you think everybody could spread that word a little bit better in terms of introducing people and then ultimately benefiting in the long run?
Megan Miller: I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity for people to go onto campus yourself and to do those types of classes, or to go into a high school. So this Invest program that I mentioned, anyone that's kind of versed in the field can request to set up one of these programs at a high school, and you're provided all the resources. You just need your time and talent. But you're provided the curriculum, you're provided documentation, whatever you need. So if you have a relationship with a school, or if you have interest in that, which I feel like a lot of people in our industry do, you know, people in our industry tend to love our industry. And I've met a lot of people, maybe just because of what we're doing at Spencer, but I've met a lot of people who want to go into the classrooms and they want to engage with young people and let them know about great career opportunities.
So I think any individual can do that, if that's something you want to do. There's opportunities. You can get in touch with an organization like Spencer, you can get in touch with someone from this Invest foundation. There's different things. And if you have a relationship with a local high school or with a local university, you can get directly in touch with them, too, and there's a lot you can do just kind of ad hoc with an individual school, as well.
Joey Giangola: Do you have any suggestions, if somebody did want, again, to sort of take that approach? And it sounds like it's pretty flexible in terms of, you had mentioned even just a couple times, two or three times a quarter, semester, whatever, however they're measuring school these days. Is there any advice that you would give in terms of how to start, how to get started, maybe some ways to be successful in reaching out and being involved?
Megan Miller: Yeah, for sure. Like I said, I mean, we're happy for people to reach out to Spencer. So what we specifically do, we provide funding to universities so that they can bring a risk manager onto campus. And usually that's like a one to three day thing, and that's it. So we'll provide the funding and then if you're a risk manager, you can partner with the university to do that, and you'll get your travel reimbursed, for example. And then usually we provide extra funds for the university to set up a reception.
So yeah, I would say, reach out to Spencer, we can direct you to other places, or again, if you have any kind of relationship with a local university, usually it would be the business school where these programs make the most sense and reside. So if you can find the dean of the business school, or if you can find a business college that's local to you, the more organized you can be, if you come with a plan, universities tend to be pretty receptive to that. They want their students to be it exposed to as much as possible.
Joey Giangola: Yeah. I mean, on the actual end product of like getting somebody into these programs, I've obviously met individuals that have come through, like you said, everybody has their own internships, programs, or whatever, but what have you seen in terms of just the quality of people coming into the industry that have had a little more organized and structured sort of environment to be introduced into insurance, versus the, like you said, the most of us that are here now, mid-career? Eh, you know, I try not to be in here, but here I am, or they've been in it from a family perspective, or just, again, it fell into their lap. I would hope to say that we've increased the level of quality in terms of people and their preparedness, but how big of a jump have we made?
Megan Miller: I mean, to be honest, it's pretty huge. So I was just at Temple University. I'm based in Philadelphia. I was at Temple University, which is also in Philly, and they have a big insurance and risk management program there. And we got to have lunch with a group of about 20 students who are Spencer scholarship recipients. So of course this is going to be students who are already standouts, but I just couldn't believe it. I mean, most of the seniors had already had work experience at two different companies, whether that's underwriting or working for a broker, or sometimes in a risk management department.
They're all part of different clubs. So the Gamma Iota Sigma is the big on campus risk management fraternity, for lack of a better word. It's like an honor society. And they're all leading different portions of Gamma Iota Sigma, whether that's the community affairs committee or the social committee, whatever it is. So they have these leadership positions. They have these diverse work experiences. Some of them are also working part-time internships while they're in school, taking classes, as well.
So depending on what type of student you are in college, like most of the insurance professionals that I meet, they're like, "Yeah, I had like a 2.7 GPA and I drank a lot." And not to disparage anyone, but I was so impressed with these students and what they're learning and the things that they're thinking about and the different competitions that they're entering and winning, these risk management challenges. So I think it's making a huge difference. And I think the students coming out today are just really super impressive and hopefully will add a lot of value to our industry in the future.
Joey Giangola: It's interesting. Where do you think the overall awareness is for something like this in terms of the agency level? I mean, do you have a lot of people coming to these programs, like for career days and things like that, targeting these students, to kind of have conversations with, get in early offer internships and things like that, or do you think there's still work to be done there in terms of having agencies know that, hey, this is a great place to look?
Megan Miller: I think, you know, a couple of things. So one is the way that students are right now mostly getting attracted into these programs is through the schools themselves. So the way the universities work, it's like everyone's fighting for the students. So certain degree programs, degree concentrations, they have to fill their seats so that they get funding from the university. So they're doing a great job of really recruiting those freshman students, like come to our program, take our class. And it's all over the map, and they're offering like free pizza or there's a possibility to win an Amazon gift card, you know? So those efforts are really broad, and that's really kind of the first point, is those universities attracting those students in.
And then just in terms of the corporate side, they can enhance that a lot by, yes, showing up at career days. I always think bringing students from campus into your office, where that's geographically and physically possible, that has such an impact. It's just cool for the students to see the work environment and what's going on. And if you can set up some sort of project while you're there, whatever it might be, or introduce them to some clients, I think all of that adds to the draw. So there's things that the universities are doing. I think there's things that companies can do, as well.
Joey Giangola: I don't know about you, Megan, but I miss the days when I would make such large career, like life impacting decisions, on such little incentive. I'll tell you what-
Megan Miller: Slice of [crosstalk].
Joey Giangola: Yeah, it's amazing what you could be roped in for. What's the best that you've seen, I guess, in terms of people coming in and putting on a good dog and pony show, like making good relationships with the students is, again, like you said, opening their doors in some way, doing like, I don't even know, an open house or something to get these kids interested. Have you seen anything crazy like that to where it's a little outside of the box of what the traditional recruitment process has been like?
Megan Miller: Yeah. I think there's a couple of companies, and I don't want to misspeak, but I believe it was Hartford and/or Munich. I think it was Munich Re, that they actually bus high school students to their Princeton campus and they do this whole big day of really wowing the kids, and they put them through, again, some sort of exercise. So I think they have to complete a policy or something. They have to just kind of do something, a bigger project where they all have to work together and there's multiple people in the organization that they have to go and see. And of course, they try to roll out the red carpet as much as possible, providing lunch and swag bag and goodies and stuff.
And that to me is just so cool. Because you know those students aren't going to come work at your company next year. They're high school students. So it's just really great to have that awareness generation. And then hopefully, four years later when they are coming into the industry, they'll think, if there's an offer from Munich Re, obviously they're going to remember that program and what a great company it was and what a great experience they had. So that's one that I think goes above and beyond.
The other thing that's really cool that a lot of companies are doing, and I know Aon has a big stake in this, is an apprenticeship program. So they're taking students who have a high school degree or a GED or equivalent, and they're putting them to work, again, kind of those entry level, data entry type positions. And then they're paying them to go to school one day a week. And so while they go through the two years of this, they're getting the work experience. But at the end of two years, they also have an associate's degree, which I just think is super cool. So that's neat.
It's not just Aon doing that. It's a lot of different companies, but Aon has made a really big investment in that apprenticeship program. And those programs are super common in Europe, not so much here. So I just think it's great to see that we don't necessarily need all four year degree people working in our industry. And if you can get those students in early, then they can keep going to school part-time and get their four year degree so they can keep going in the organization, as well.
Joey Giangola: If you had to give, again, agency owners one thing to walk away from in terms of impactfulness, in terms of whether it's investing or just dedicating time to that next generation, the influx of talent, to sort of position themselves in the industry better, what's the one thing that really stands out to you that you think everybody should at least have on their mind?
Megan Miller: I mean, I think even if you're not the type of person that has any interest in teaching or mentoring or even being involved, I think if you have an opportunity to talk with students, you should take it, because you're going to be really impressed. You're going to be pleasantly surprised by these students. And I think whatever you can share about what you love about your job, in whatever forum, to these young people, I just think that that goes a long way for the entire industry.
Joey Giangola: All right, Megan, I've got three more questions for you. And the first one is what's one thing that you hope you never forget?
Megan Miller: So I have four kids, and right now they're eight, six, three, and one, and everyone says, you know, it's so hard right now, because I have four little kids and it gets really stressful. Everyone says when they're older, you wish you could bottle up that time. So I just wish I could actually remember what it feels like to be in this moment, to somehow have that bottled up. So I don't know, maybe that's just like videos on my iPhone that I can look at later, but that's really it, just really remembering those good moments and what the kids are actually like when they're these young ages.
Joey Giangola: I definitely can relate to that, Megan. Now on the other side of that, what's one thing that you still have yet to learn?
Megan Miller: You know, I think just navigating relationships. You can never stop learning how to listen better and deal with people better and deal with challenging situations better. So I think in general just continuing to hone that emotional intelligence. I just had a parent teacher conference this morning talking about my six year old who's in kindergarten, and talking about that emotional intelligence and how to support their emotions. And they're learning things in school now that I didn't learn when I was six years old. You're just on the playground, trying to figure it out in whatever way possible. So I love that that's being taught at the school where my kids are going. And I think even as a grownup, I still have a ton to learn in that area about emotional intelligence and just being empathetic to other people.
Joey Giangola: All right, Megan, last question. If I were to hand you a magic wand of sorts to reshape, change, alter, speed up, really any part of insurance, I might have a guess of where it's going, but what is that thing, where is it going, and what is it doing?
Megan Miller: Yeah, I mean, I think just the magic wand would just get rid of the stigma that surrounds the industry. So I think insurance for many reasons has gotten a bad rap over time. And it's just not something that a lot of people who don't know a lot about it think of favorably. It's kind of like a necessary evil in most individuals' lives, whether it's car insurance or health insurance or whatever.
And let's face it, I mean, especially health insurance in this country, we've all had horrible experiences. It's just not fun. So I think that the magic wand would just open a lot of eyes to the broader insurance picture and how it is really helping society.
Joey Giangola: Megan, this has been fantastic. I'm going to leave it right there.
Megan Miller: Thank you so much.